ryan mailbag
I thank everyone, friend and foe, for their feedback on l'affaire Adams. In case you missed it, I posted here last week that Ryan Adams was an inept lyric writer, an unoriginal songwriter, and an artist who had so long and consistently failed to rise to either of the two categories of artistic interest -- "good" and "bad" -- that either he needed to do something different or we needed to get away fast. I also helpfully provided some examples of more creative artists in his genre that fans of his could investigate for honest comparison.
Other than one example of an inept lyric (the one that impelled me to bang my car radio with my fist and rush home to blog) I didn't give very much evidence for my assertions. A blog isn't really a court of law. Non-extraordinary claims don't need much evidence. And, in matters of taste, the formal protocols of dispute, as the Latins pronounced in one of their all-too-typical maxims that somehow manage to be both perfectly concise and utterly incomprehensible, don't apply.
Or do they? For me, the most interesting outcome of this little conversation is that it has given me the occasion to think once again (I think about this frequently) about the question of subjectivity and musical preference. Before I face that gila monster, though, let me tick off some of the less formidable arguments that have come in against "Resolved: Ryan Adams Is An Inept Lyricist, An Unoriginal Songwriter, And A Boringly Mediocre Artist."
Who The Hell Are You, And Why Should I Listen To Your Opinion? Opinions and arguments are judged by their merits, not the person presenting them. Dummy.
You're Just Jealous. I can't dispositively prove I'm not, and if you think I need to, I refer you to the brief paragraph above. Also, jealous of what? His songwriting skills? Trust me -- no. His record of bedding marvelous vixens such as Winona Ryder and Cyd Charisse? Definitely! His fame, wealth, status? Not consciously, but it's possible. This whole area is murky, partly because he's not that rich and famous and I'm not that poor and obscure. (Almost that obscure, but not as obscure as the people in comments threads on out-of-the-way websites who think I'm obscure.) And if we're going to credit the idea that what motivates less-famous people to criticize more-famous people may be jealousy, we have to credit the equally likely possibility that base motives such as brown-nosing, conformity, laziness, and even fearfulness may motivate praise that moves in the same direction on the ladder of prestige. The reviewer for your daily paper who raves about Jonathan Franzen's Freedom may have genuinely loved the book; also, he may not want to stand against the tide of consensus opinion, may want an interview opportunity with Mr. Franzen at a later time, may want to have his own novel read by Mr. Franzen and generously reviewed by his peers when it comes out, may not want to cultivate a reputation as a meanie. In short, I think this is a fruitless line of counterattack.
There's a subvariant of the you're-just-jealous school that's more interesting:
He's Richer And More Successful Than You Are, So Who Cares What You Think? I find myself somewhat sympathetic to this position. Wealth is by no means a flawless index of solid achievement, but it's a pretty decent one. And if we ascribe some sort of universal values to music which, after all, calls itself "popular," then I think we have to grant some automatic honor to those who sell a lot of records over those who sell comparatively few. The catch is that these things shift with time. If, God forbid, tomorrow Ryan loses all his assets in a fire or a stock downturn, or if, as is empirically much likelier, over the next decade or two his audience and earnings gradually dwindle, records such as Meet Whiskeytown! will remain, unaltered. So now what? Is this music suddenly less worthy than it was? I think the fact that Ryan has more money and name recognition than I do is a sign that he may indeed be better at the craft that we share, but I find myself willing to follow this line only so far. That Shania Twain's superior sales and riches elevate her artistically above Ryan I can swallow, but I'd balk at the idea that mine rank me above Skip James. And, importing the criterion into other fields, can we use comparative income data to dismiss what a small mutual fund manager has to say about Warren Buffet, a state senator about President Obama, a no-name poet about Stephen King? All in all, it seems easier to address an argument on its face.
And in a similar vein:
So-and-so [Insert Name of Globally Renowned Songwriter-Artist] Says Ryan Adams Is Great, and I'd Sooner Take His Word Than Yours. Also called "playing the Willie Nelson card." When it comes out, instinct tells me to bow my head demurely and fold my hand. But not without first saying that arguments from authority, no matter how impressive the authority, are intrinsically vulnerable. Not as vulnerable, maybe, as the argument I employed, the argument on unbridled insult, but vulnerable. One reason I won't match the authorities cited with earth-shaking hot-shots of my own is that I don't want to betray confidences. (There's a few celebrity dissenters you can easily find out there on the Internet, though.) One hotshot's word against another's, and the ground gives way, while whatever substance we were originally addressing stands unperturbed. None of this is to deny that many, many songwriters have written more and better songs than I have...only to lament Willie Nelson's lousy taste.
The counterargument to "Resolved: Ryan Adams Is A Clumsy Craftsman, An Outright Plagiarist, And Probably A Sodomite" that is of fascinating and endless interest is:
There's What You Like, And There's What I Like: Game Over. Tastes in music appear analogous to tastes in fashion or food. Why strike up an unwinnable argument against what somebody wants to eat, wear, or hear? The tastes people develop are grounded in context and unique experience. Arguing against them is not only, in the absence of truly objective standards, meaningless; it's also, given the way people assimilate and personalize brand identities (in Virginia Postrel's phrase, "I like = I am like"), kind of rude, like calling their spouses homely.
As I say, I find this point formidable, and mainly convincing. But I find everyday ground-level reasons keep me from altogether embracing a no-accounting-for-tastes philosophy, and there seems to be some science against a too-individualized understanding as well. This is where it gets most interesting to me, and where, with regrets, I have to break off for now, because I need to go practice the guitar. Back later!
28 comments
Oh Robbie,
Love you, love your music. Ryan Adams, meh... Aside from the New York song, he's wholly unmemorable to me. And that's probably a product of repetition, not quality.
But this argument--and now the outlining of the counter-arguments--is getting long-winded and unbecoming. It all boils down to the last point you made: "You like what you like, and I like what I like. Period" Essentially, you aren't going to change the mind of anyone who bothers to respond negatively, and no one is going to change your mind.
This is Democrat vs. Republican, Cubs vs. Sox, Jew vs. Muslim, etc., with one key difference
So many of the people you are arguing with are supporters of both you and Ryan Adams. So instead of retreating to their corners/bunkers/bomb shelters/ballparks/houses of worship, this is a scab that keeps getting picked at. (Wow, there's a Ryan Adams-worthy metaphor!)
Here's a point that I wonder (and perhaps you've answered it in the past)... Does it pain you that some (many?) of the same people who enjoy your work also like Ryan Adams' music? Do you wish that they all could distinguish between your brilliance and his flatulence?
If so, I do stand guilty, if for reasons other than Ryan Adams. My guilty pleasures include synthy British pop, German speed metal, Urge Overkill and, egad, Whitesnake. I'm probably one of the few people who own records featuring both "Pete Way's Trousers" and Pete Way himself. But I won't throw away any of them--no matter how vigorous an argument either you or Pete Way present. Period.
But, nforab, what's better musical entertainment than a good old fashioned celeberity feud? Oh the humanity. And I'd like to think Rob isn't so much obsessed, although who knows, as enjoying the splitting of hairs and the poking of gasbags. Like Cubs versus Sox, there's no final answer but the discussion can embiggen the discoursed.
And, a jillion years ago they had this alt-country tour that came through town. It may have been a Bloodshot thing. There were 4 or 5 bands with each one doing a thirty minute set and it was great night. Until, Mr Adam's Whiskeytown came on. Being an 'artist' he wasn't contrained by conventional limits, so he went went over his time and I had to leave and never got to hear the last act, The Old 97's.
Fuck that guy.
"...only to lament Willie Nelson's lousy taste" Indeed! One need only recall that St. Willie made a conscious decision to release "On the Road Again" and "To All the Girls I've Loved Before" AND that he has kept in his band that most annoying harmonica player for decades to conclude that he really does have profound deficiencies in the taste department. Not to say he hasn't written some all-time classics, but I really do question his hyper-exalted iconic status in the American musical scene. Ryan Adams I don't care about one way or the other -- except to say that it certainly can be annoying when an untalented and uninsightful person mysteriously receives an undeserved level of acclaim and attention. Cf. Thomas Friedman!!
So, by my accounting it's Robbie 1, Windmills 1.
In the words of my mother - it takes all kinds to make up a world. When I read that Robbie didn't like the Eagles, not even their early records, I was dumbfounded. How could I guy I love so much dislike a band that I would have thought would have been a positive part of his musical education, like mine? (I learned to play drums by playing along with the Desperado album, and trying to duplicate the double drummer parts on the Doobie Brothers Captain & Me record) Simple - different strokes for different folks. I own 2 Ryan Adams records neither of which I've played more than a few times. Willie Nelson also has different tastes in music - imagine that! To Punch - Michey Raphael is one of the most distinctive harmonica players on the planet. That doesn't mean you have to like him though. I believe I'll listen to some Neil Young this morning. Guy can't sing but he sure can write. Oops hope I don't open up another can of worms. Dylan, Kris Kristofferson, Neil Young - none of them can sing but they are among the greatest songwriters ever. Discuss.
"Michey Raphael is one of the most distinctive harmonica players on the planet. That doesn't mean you have to like him though. I believe I'll listen to some Neil Young this morning. Guy can't sing but he sure can write. Oops hope I don't open up another can of worms. Dylan, Kris Kristofferson, Neil Young - none of them can sing but they are among the greatest songwriters ever." -- 1. I completely agree that Mickey Raphael's playing is distinctive -- indeed, you know immediately that it's him when begins the caterwauling horrific overwrought wailing that overwhelms and ruins three decades' worth of Willie Nelson songs. 2. Kris Kristofferson is a very good example of the Lyle Lovett / Tom Friedman phenomenon -- caught on early with a certain crowd and has maintained, for far too long, an unjustifiedly exalted status based on ... what? 3. Anyone who thinks that Bob Dylan is not a good singer is just quite simply wrong. It has nothing to do with taste. It has to do with objective fact and the recognition of talent and genius.
Yeah you're jealous.
Just kidding. But seriously, I will be the first to recognize that neither popularity nor monetary success equals quality in regards to music or really anything else. I cited Elton John and Willie Nelson's endorsement, and the royalties earned off one song in response to your question, "What does he have to show for his 15 years in the game." Again, I'd say a lot. I certainly don't think Ryan is in for the money though. If he lost it all in a fire or stock downturn his enormous body of work would remain. He's cited in many interviews that he spent almost his entire twenties either on stage, in a studio, or in a bus/plane/hotel room writing. His success is a result of years of hard work. And he's very proud of his work which I think will withstand the test of time regardless of whether or not he relapses, divorces Mandy, and spends all his money on speedballs.
I'll also agree with a previous poster that this whole thing is very unbecoming of you as an artist and a person. Ryan has a pretty significant internet presence as well. He updates his facebook page personally (He has around 200,000 fans on FB, you have around 1,000. But who's counting right?) and has been known to frequently post on one of his fan sites ryanadamsarchive.org. In all of these internet ramblings I have never seen him attack another songwriter though.
Maybe you should spend a little less time blogging and a little more time trying to write a hit record. But you'd probably rather remain in obscurity where you can cast stones at other songwriters with hardly anyone noticing.
For the record I had never even heard of you until I stumbled upon this blog from a message board where someone was reporting that you were whining about Ryan Adams again. Apparently this is a reoccurring theme on this blog? Awesome. Anyway maybe later today I'll see if I can track down some of your music on this vast internet and give it the proverbial spin. I bet it sucks. Ha.
Yo, CAM! Check out this video of Mr. Adams: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBf48ru4Nq4 In it he has the audacity to criticize Bon Jovi as being pretentious and unoriginal! What a jerk! He must say these mean things because Bon Jovi has so very many more fans, right? He also says that "the majority of musicians are entitled, lazy $%!+$." How very unbecoming of him!
Btw, Whiskeytown's "Excuse Me While I Break My Own Heart Tonight" is a terrific song.
I'd say there's a difference between making fun of Bon Jovi on stage during a ridiculous Q&A and keeping a running blog on how much you hate one of your contemporaries.
You ever think about this Robbie? At this moment, and any other time when your most recent blog has been about your contempt towards Ryan Adams, it's the first thing you see when you go to Robbiefulks.com
Pretty lame.
Cam, I hope you didn't pull a muscle twisting your logic after Holway poked a hole in your "Ryan would never attack another songwriter" comment.
Unlike a lame fanboy such as you (who fantasizes about how Ryan "isn't in it for the money" [hint: they're ALL in it for the money; if not, they'd just make music in their basement] and attacks someone for criticizing your beloved recording artist), I've actually met Ryan Adams. Twice. And he was a complete, unfailing asshole both times -- not just to me, but everyone in the room, including members of his band. While that doesn't speak to the quality of his music (which I find hit and miss), it does speak to the kind of person he is.
I, for one, find Robbie's commentary interesting and amusing. I also find your sad "defense" of Ryan and ad hominem attacks on Robbie amusing, but not at all interesting. If I happen to meet Ryan Adams again, I will tell him how you passionately defended him on the Robbie Fulks website. Maybe then he'll call you and the two of you will become friends. That's how the fantasy goes, isn't it?
If you Google "Ryan Adams being..." DOUCHE comes up about 300,000 times.
To "I heart Cam" -- funny that you would accuse Cam of ad hominem attacks a few sentences after you called him a "lame fanboy"! What if Cam is a gurl? What if he/she isn't "lame" at all but simply disagrees with you? And I didn't find Holway's response all that devastating I must say. Finally -- and it must be said -- "Summer of 69" totally rocks regardless of whether one thinks that the singer is a nice person!!
Re: the Willie Nelson-Ryan Adams collaboration - I remember reading that Willie ended up disliking hin too because of the way that the Cardinals played; not jazzy enough or such like.
Yes - I did - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_%28Willie_Nelson_album%29#Ryan_Adams.27_thoughts_on_the_album
(If that link doesn't show, go to the Wikipedia page for the Songbird album.)
Cam, Robbie is not obsessed with criticizing Ryan Adams. He has been mentioned in this blog a couple of times, that's all. Big deal.
When you experience Robbie's music you will find that it does not suck. In fact, he is one of the most talented and distinctive voices to be found in today's music. Much better than Ryan Adams.
Ochs, I hope your post was in jest...I think we all know that Summer OF '69 was Bryan Adams, not Ryan. If it was indeed a joke, it isn't at all original. If it wasn't a joke, you're just ignorant.
I am grateful for Ryan Adams as his "Songbird" production seemed to convince Willie Nelson that alt-country was didn't work for him, and his more recent, more country/swing/jazz releases have been good to excellent.
Very disappointing that an artist would spend energy being critical of another artist. After all music is art and there is no accounting for art. I happen to love Ryan Adams' work, and don't care much at all from what I have heard of yours. There are those who think you are God's gift to music. It's all good.
Robbie, keep your focus on your own music and don't spend your energy on criticizing other's work. It exposes your lack of character.
steely blue I hope you return to read this reply to your last sentence.
After 10 years of working occasionally with Robbie, I can attest to the mans character. He has always treated me as a member of the team, not the part time hired help that I am. He has never taken advantage of me nor short changed me even when he could or should have. During times of personal distress, he has reached out to give support and ease my pain. He has always been honest, at times, brutally so.
The music is good, intellectually stimulating, and fun. But it is for the man I will go anywhere to try and make his show easier for him to perform. In a business filled with shady characters and scam artists, Robbie stands a head and shoulders above the norm.
@edbro: I did read your reply, and I think it is great that Mr. Fulks has treated you well. Doing the things you described are certainly good character traits. Attacking another person and sitting in judgment of their artistic freedom does not speak well to character. There is a lot of music that I don't particularly care for, and I just change the radio station and move on.
Being a musician myself, I find it especially disturbing to read one musician taking careless shots at another musician.
There are some people on the planet displaying some pretty horrible behavior these days... without musical instruments. If someone is compelled to vent their anger and disgust, they are much more deserving of a blog rant.
hey steelyblue buddy. I'm sorry to belabor this further but as a man and a mason, I take character issues probably a bit to seriously. So its a lack of character to post ones honest opinions on ones own web site.? As an engineer, is it wrong for me to criticize a performance and try another take? Is it wrong for an entertainer to criticize my abilities during a show? Is this a lack of character or honest opinion to rectify a problem. My only experience with Ryan Adams was reading a review of a chicago show some years back by Greg Kot. In the review he said the 1st half of the show consisted of Ryan playing records on an old record player like i had in the early 60s with a mic on the speaker and dancing around the stage. The 2nd half was a sloppy drunk show. Was it a lack of character on Gregs part in panning the show or was it a lack of character on Ryans part for taking peoples money and giving them that in return? Or are grg and I exempt because we are not in the clique called musicians? Honesty is a character trait, Robbies comments in regards to Ryan Adams have been consistent thru the years. Knowing the man, I can only think they are his honest opinions, Not spammed across the internet but written on his web site. Criticism can hurt, but if heard, can make for better music and sound. But what do I know, I'm not a musician, I was born in the 50s, back when criticism was something you dealt with, not everybody was a winner. I'm the second lowest form of life right above promoter, sound engineer ;)
Take care & happy Trails, edbro
First of all, you can never take character issues too seriously. We have lost emphasis on that far too much in this country. I too was born in the 50's and fortunately had folks who thought it was important.
Trust me, I haven't thought for a minute that I was going to win any debate on this web site... LOL... and that wasn't my intent. I'll concede right now.
Somehow I don't believe you criticize your colleagues by attacking them personally. You probably say what I say to my band mates, "That sounded like shit, we can do much better."
My disappointment with one musician dissing another is that they are typically the target of the arm chair critics who sit and take pot shots at people's work. So most musicians know what it feels like to have someone judge them and criticize them with no constructive intent.
Ryan Adams has had quite a few times in his past when he behaved like a jerk. He has admitted that and has made some pretty dramatic changes in his life to make positive change. We can beat the guy up for his past mistakes, or acknowledge his courage for trying to do better going forward.
We all make mistakes and we all have acted like jerks at some point. We don't need the critics lining up to remind us. We especially don't need them dismissing all our creative efforts as trash.
Okay, I'm done talking about this.
btw... I listened to a few more of Mr. Fulks songs on youtube and it was pretty good stuff. If you did the sound, the sound sucked! :D just kidding
Peace
Hey steely,
if your in chicago, come down to the hideout for a residency show and I'll buy you a beer. I'll be the guy recording,happy trails edbro
CAM is either Mandy Moore or Ryan's mother. Or Ryan himself. I'm sure of it. Probably one of the first two, cuz Ryan can't spell.
The idea that artists shouldn't criticize other artists is nonsense.
I guess your assessment of Mr. Adams lends weight to the argument that he needs an editor, hahaha. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion, and that's cool. I mean, lord knows the guy releases a ton of material.
Shit, the guy has put out more great albums than you have put out great songs. Hell, the guy has stashed away more great unreleased albums than you have put out great songs.
I've been teaching philosophy and playing homemade country music for thirty years or so. The arguments here I've rehearsed in my sleep--teaching the aesthetics of pop music does that. But it's a brilliant presentation of all of them and will be useful in class, when I ask, as Plato did, how artists think of their own--and other artists'-- work. I'm actually on board with the assessment of Adams--I find Caitlin Cary's songs more compelling. But on the Humean "taste" theory one would have to allow that any ol sh... is as good as any other. If so, why even argue about your take on Adams--just let it be, no reason to argue, complain, etc. The only reason to argue is that the arguer's "taste" (so the arguer believes) either in music or "talk about music" is held to be "better" than yours. The upshot is that making judgments about music, art, etc, and providing reasons for what you say--as you did initially--is a reasonable way to go about the world. So, if one disagrees, as you point out, bring the arguments and the evidence; or if one thinks it's all a matter of taste, let it go. In any case, thanks for another day of class well spent showing students that philosophy is not a privileged highbrow activity but something that goes on everywhere everyday.
Thanks,
Moose from Pks
Yeah, this whole Ryan Adams assessment makes you look quite pathetic and clearly an envious douche bag... I had never heard your name before and now that I have, I'll always remember you as the guy who writes sub-par tunes and complains over the success of artists who've gained success by being 'prolific' - great job of marketing yourself!
yeah, what JC said! your just a big dumhead!
Seriously, thanks for this and the prequel Robbie. I actually like RA's stuff, but these were highly entertaining and thought-provoking reads that reminded me I really need to check your site more often.
Don't let that go to your head though, I like Todd Snider a lot, too.
Aaron
p.s. Please come back to Pittsburgh. I'd love to have you autograph my copy of Cardinology!
If you are going to accuse. How is Ryan a plagiarist? Back it up Robbie. I challenge you. Step to the plate, you coward. Name a song. I'm wiling to guarantee that you can't.
Good luck with the negative press thing.